Friday, December 31, 2010

Point Counterpoint: Is Dad's Death Related To Joo Won?

All rise, for the sifu has spoken. Time to give your two cents on this, people. I thought I had one, but both parties' arguments pack a punch and their words are so sneaky I find myself nodding in agreement to the BOTH of them. *Sigh* My head hurts from the math and theories, I didn't even use so much brainpower for jdrama Liar Game.
Four Clues/Key Points

1) Joo Won = 34 years old
Evidence #1: Episode 12; JW's mom mentioned it during the family gathering which Seul attended.
Evidence #2: Episode 12; the conversation between Cupid and Joo Won. Cupid talks down on him, unaware that he's older than him -he's 31. He tells JW he has a "baby face".

2) Ra Im = 30 years old 
Evidence: Scene in Episode 10, when Oska sends RI back and Joo Won interrupts them, suddenly appearing out of nowhere. He's pissed that she uses "oppa" for Oska but no him, when clearly she's 4 years his junior.

3) Ra Im's dad died when she was 17 
Evidence: Episode 8; the I'll Pay More Tax For You scene at Jeju-do.
Therefore that means it was 30-17=13 years ago

4) One key scene: JW Mom says he has been training Joo Won since he was 12.

So if RI's dad DID indeed died to save him, that would make him 
34-13=21 years old at the time of the accident

Sifu: It's a bit odd to be training at such a late age (i.e. 12) when the average family in Korea will send their children to extra classes to cultivate their talent starting from their kindergarten years. Thus, one can conclude the late age is due to JW's mom having to train him AFTER the accident, which happened when he was twelve. Hence, dad may have saved him before, but he did not die until years later in another rescue.

Futhermore, Korean men usually pay their military dues when they're around 21-26 years old, an age AFTER graduation but BEFORE working as they do not wish to quit work just to serve their duties. Only k-stars tend to go in late, as they work during their youth and go in nearing their 30's (30 is the age limit, you MUST go before then, or be prepared to go to jail).

In Episode 14, when they're in each other's bodies, their conversation in the cafe revealed that Joo Won has received the Notice of Civil Defense Training, which one only gets after 8 years after completing their military service. Therefore, it has been at least 8 years since his service (i.e 34-8=26 years old). Hence he must have been in the army when he was 24 yrs old or earlier (subtract 2 years for army duty). 

That means the chances of him getting rescued by RI's dad at 21 years old is very slim, since at 20-24 he must have been studying (at Colombia University, might I add) or doing his military service. 

Conclusion: There's a possibility dad might have save Joo Won when he was twelve, but that's not the rescue mission he died in.
Lucy: Refering to Point 4), training him since he was twelve does NOT mean that he had an accident at that time, it probably means JW's dad died/divorced during that time, hence the mom has to take up the responsibility of raising him.

Although it was not mentioned, the accident probably happened during his 20's. At the scene in Jeju-do where Oska, RI and JW had a conversation in the hotel room, Ra Him said that Joo Won has completed his army duties. 

Then Oska said something that implied that Joo Won need not do do his service. Why? It's because he is mentally unstable, due to the accident (which can get you exempted from military service). Therefore the accident happen prior to his military service.

Conclusion: Accident happened when he was 21, followed by studies and military duty.

Chloe Says: Hmm...the key to this seems to be JW's mom statement about training Joo Won since he was twelve. To summarize the both, it could either mean:
a) The accident happen when he was 12. 
b) His dad divorced/died when he was 12.

Via Baidu's Secret Garden (pics and Chi trans)


  1. Either way, I believe the main point is, that RI's father did indeed save JW's life. So without RI's father, we would have no JW at all.

    Chloe, thanks so much for taking the time to compile all the spoiler/speculation together! Really appreciate it!

  2. haha, I loved Liar Game. It took me a while to get my head around that series.

    I don't know how you had the energy to compile all that info, it makes my head hurt taking it all in. But thanks very much for doing so. Can't wait to find out the answers.

  3. Thank you, for your for all the info.
    Just want to mention that RI is born on 1982/10/05. According to your post about her Resume's translation this is her D.O.B. I simply froze the screen on the whole page of the CV.

    Have a beautiful time these days!

  4. You're welcome, everyone! It's fun to discuss the possibilities;))

    @puion: So true! Although there's still a possibility that dad did not save him, I hope he did but did not die (Opinion #1)

    @Anonymous #2: Love the whole LG series, season one and two AND the movie! :D

    @Anonymous #3: The resume I translated did not include her D.O.B, do you mean you rewatched the scene and paused?

  5. eek... my head hurts... either way... we all can assume from the chanel house spoiler that mean dad save jw and that gonna give their situation a "pretty" solution. i for one... don't like coincidental/fate answer to their social-class problem. its too neat of a solution. boo boo.

    here a ANOTHER question:
    how experience is joo won with the ladies since in the scene where he was learning to put a bra on... RI in joo won body stated "don't act so innocent" and he retort "taking them off is one thing, putting them on is another". did he get it on with the therapist? damn im a perv. i am still stuck on if he ever dated his therapist.

  6. I think there may have been some wrong translations floating about because you have some of your figures wrong.
    1. JW is 33 years old, he said he was turning 34 in the new year
    2. RI is 29 yrs old (they are exactly 4 yrs apart)
    3. JW did serve in the regular military (it was not implied that he did NOT by Oska), Oska said many people thought that he did NOT serve in the regular army but he did
    4. Also, the draft age is pretty broad in Korea at least 18 to 35 yrs old. Generally Korean guys elect to go after their 2nd year in college which makes them about 22 and they can defer until they are 24 if they do decide to finish
    5. JW's mom was referring to aesthetics lessons (manners, culture, etc), this is different from the regular extracirricular education that you are talking about above.

  7. i'd like to point out a few errors in known facts
    and flaws of the logic.

    as of 2010, JW is 33 and RI 29. RI's dad died 12 years ago.

    regarding to 'since he was 12'
    i've read so many false assumptions about it, partly due to mis- or imcomplete translations.
    it doesn't neccessarily mean mom started to raise jw since 12.
    the fact he's been trained for ONE thing(aethestics in this case) doesn't mean he's been trained starting from 12 for EVERYTHING. for example, let's say you learnt pinao/swim/english etc. and among them started to play piano at 12. does it mean you started the others at 12 or later? NO.

    3. "8 years after completing their military service"
    it should be 9. the period of the reserv forces
    counted from 1th Jan the next year of discharge.

    "subtract 2 years for army duty"
    in case that he entered the army after the gradution, you should take into account the month dates of discharge and graduation.

    "20-24 he must have been studying "
    an excuse is still possible, so called vacation.

    "Then Oska said something that implied that Joo Won need not do do his service."
    if you mean jejudo scene, oska didn't say anything like that.
    various cases still exist and corresponding excuses are possible technically (but not commonsensically).
    in general i don't think the drama writers always consider men's chronicles thoroughly.
    i watched many dramas has nonsense plot from the point of view of the timeline.

  8. For 1) I thought HE said he was 34 (in Cupid scene) but mom was the one who said he was turning 34 nxt year (in another scene)?

    Therefore I added 1 year to RI's too.

    2) Actually what I meant was, Oska implied he "NEED not", not "did not".

    4) and 5) -No comment. That's the author's opinion.

    Yes, the draft age is broad, I agree. But since he has received the notice of ... that means his service in the military must have been AT LEAST 8 years already. Therefore, as said above, that narrows it down an age before 24.

  9. Anonymous #3:

    Yes, I froze the screen to see the whole Resume. And I compared it to the translated screencap. But even if the translation is wrong, a date like this on a CV can mean only one thing. It's pretty clear it's her birthday, so she's 28years and 3months.

  10. hmm i posted minutes ago but it's gone now?

  11. Technically RI is 28 , but in Korea, she is 29 (add 1 to the "Western age")

    And, in the conversation with Cupid, JW said "I'm turning 34" ... so he is still 33

  12. @Whitefox: Sorry, spam bin again. Have no idea how Blogger screen things really :-L

    Thanks for the clarification on some of the items of the timeline. Usually I don't think that much and just lap up what the story hands out...WHY is SG making me think?!! LOL.

    So the bottom line is, the Writer can still do what she wants, eh?

  13. The jeju scene- again there are wrong translations.

    JW went into the regular army and did not serve in alternative forms of military service. Oska said that people assumed that JW served the latter but in fact, he served in the regular army.

    The alternative forms can be a cushy desk job, defense work, etc but it's not as physically grueling if you served in the regular army.

    Alternative positions within the army are normally thought to be served by children of the elite and wealthy in Korea with a whole bunch of other exceptions as well. JW being a mental patient is one of them to disqualify him from being eligible to serve in the regular army.

  14. @Bella: Thanks for the info:X

    One of the biggest mysterious to me is: With JW's personality, how the heck did he made it through that two years? :-/

    And come to think of it, doesn't he have a severe back condition? That would mean some sort of exemption, no? Unless the accident happened AFTER the MS, but then the timeline won't quite fit... ~x(